With the 2.52 Final drive it cruises at 2450-2500 RPM at 70. The motor is a 39 year old 302 short block, has ported Windsors with big valves and a moderately wild high RPM cam. Air-Gap dual plane, MSD 6-AL, 650 DP. Gets about 16 MPG. Car has 26" tires. And a 9" rear with 3.70s and a Detroit Locker, and full length headers and H pipe The car pulls hard all the way to 6200-6400 RPM. The cam is a little too big for the compression due to a miscalculation when we ordered it. But it's definitly not lugging at 2400+ RPM and with how high the power band is First is still very useful. The current T-5 Trans has a 3.35 First and a .68 O/D. The trans I want has a 2.95 First and a .59 O/D. With 4.22s the only difference will be felt in 2nd 3rd and 4th. The 302 is going to be replaced with a D.S.S. Pro Bullet 331 with AFR 185s, Comp 274HR roller cam, Same Air-Gap and hopefully powerjection III fuel injection. The new cam is far better suited to lower RPM highway cruising so all new mods I consider are for the 331 not the old 302. The 4.22s or 4.11s will be with the new motor and trans. And who knows? I might leave the 3.70s. Then I'd have a 2.18:1 Final drive. That's not far from a stock 80s 5.0 Mustangs 2.09:1 with the 3.08 rear. The new roller cam has a much tighter lobe separation at 112 and the duration is 224/232 @ .50 so it might like the lower cruising RPM. Any way. Not sure if the (302) motor likes it or not but it will briskly accelerate from 2400 RPM on in 5th. And I'm not in any way not trashing the 3500 RPM cruising crowd. But the racket it makes is pretty annoying on a 100+ mile trip to the coast. Also in 5th the car has a lot longer legs. I have loafed along at 85-100 MPH without much drama, and still feeling like she's got a lot left. An O/D transmission is in my opinion one of the best mods you can add to an older car. P.S. I would be a little more happy if I could get a 2.87 1st gear instead of the 2.95...
Hello Group, In 2006 My son and I drove from illinois to the Knottsberry Farm show. The Pinto we drove has 4.11 W T5 trans and 225-50-15 tires about 24" tall. The engine is an AK Miller Turbo 2.0L. It was a fun trip 3600miles round trip, but we were only getting about 9 MPG. I used 370 gallons of fuel Funny, in 2007 I trailered the same car towing W/ a V10 van and 3000lb trailer 5 people lots of room and got 12 MPG. 300 Gal of fuel I would swap in a 3.80, but I don't drive that Pinto that much these days. In 2008 I drovea loaded down 72 Pinto wagon and got 20mpg. 180 gal of fuel I am building a 73 Pinto W/Kent 1.6L engine that I hope to drive to Knottsberry getting 30 MPG using 120 gallons of fuel. I am using the "fork lift" flat head to raise the CR and I will see if it will pull a 3.00 gear unless I figure out how to install a t-5 behiind a 1.6L. It will be a really SLOW trip as my expectations are about 40 MPH top speed in the mountains in 3rd gear. Hope to meet up with a few of the Maverick guys at the Knotts for 2011
Pintony. I'll try to be there. Not sure if it'll be in a Maverick or a Pinto I remember a friendly competition between Maverick and Pinto owners last time to see which car was better represented. Pintos won last year if I remember right. Maybe I'll bring one of each
Hello 69 GT, Post a link or send me an email pintony_2000@yahoo.com I would like to see your Pinto. Brien Problems from Anaheim Ca. was a BIG Pinto wagon guy. But he got smart and now tinkers with a Green Maverick he bought for his son.
Ok. I did some follow up research today in my favorite lab setting... Went down the freeway and recorded my RPM in a few different gears and speeds. My car has 26" tall tires and the correct speedo gear This is with 3.70 gears and a T-5 with 3.35 1st and a .68 overdrive in 5th. Some examples: 1st gear at 30 MPH = 4000 RPM 4th gear at 65 MPH = 3300 RPM 5th gear at 65 MPH = 2450 RPM 5th gear at 80 MPH = 2900 RPM + or - 100 RPM margin of error due to me having to look at road, and maintain RPM at the same time...
You're not getting what I'm talking about with 1st gear being too deep are you ? Go back out and see how easy it is to take off in 2nd gear. Do a burnout in 2nd. Forget 1st is even there for a week or two. Then you'll see how useless it really is, unless you're into tractor pulls.The only thing you've gained at highway speeds over mine is a lower rpm. Mileage is about the same.
I'm getting what you're talking about. I just don't get how you can make that assumption about a car you've never driven. Mine is a manual transmission car hooked to a high RPM motor. You're under the assumption I don't get traction in first and that it's somehow "useless" and that is wrong. I know this because I have driven and raced this car... A lot. The car launches hard even on it's old street tires and hits 50 MPH or so when I shift to second. I've had this combo for 7 years Of course I've tried starting it in second. The car is a pig starting from a dead stop in 2nd which by the way is an even taller final ratio than 1st gear in your C-4. Our Mileage is about the same except my motor is 33 years older and has 140K miles. And idles at about 5 PSI oil pressure. Has a sick lifter and admittedly has a 650 DP that is too big. And the cam is mismatched for an 8:1 compression ratio. And it still gets 16. Oh and I like cruising at 3500 RPM too. But I'm going around 100 MPH.
No, you don't get what I'm talking about. Who takes off and revs the engine to 6200 everytime ? You're speedo is way off too. 6200 rpms with a 12:1 ratio is 38 mph. To hit 50, your engine would explode well before it hit 8050 rpms @ 50 mph. (if it could) And if your motor can't start and accellerate your car in 2nd,(much less do a burnout) that tells me it's .................. I'm not talking about racing, I'm talking about what's useful in normal everyday driving on the street. That I haven't driven your car is true, but I have driven dozens of other cars and trucks for 40 years. So I do have a pretty good handle on what's useful when it comes to gearing a vehicle. This is no different from driving trucks (the big ones with more than 5 gears) You know how I can spot the beginner drivers ? They're the ones who use ALL the gears in the transmission, no matter the driving conditions. They sit there and needlessly go thru 4 gears while I'm off and running away from them after starting in the correct gear..........................finally, 3500 in 5th ? That's not 100 mph with a 2.50 final drive. But that would be about topped in, in OD.
OK. I'll tell you where you're wrong and where you're right. OK. In first at over 6200 RPM I am at a little over 40 MPH. You were right. I was probably thinking of my old combo. And the speedo is accurate. Even according to the CHP radar Starting in second is possible. I never said I can't. I have done it many times including several times today just because of what you said here. It involves too much slipping the clutch and/or lugging the engine. The final ratio in second is 7.18:1. That's too tall for a manual trans car with a motor that doesn't make a lot of torque down low. If you have a stock geared C-4 in your Comet, your final in first is 8.75:1 with a 3.50 rear gear set. Not to mention you have a 331 with a way more modern roller Z cam that without a doubt makes a lot more usable low RPM torque than my old school narrow power band flat tappet 302. Also a non lock-up auto trans like a C-4 is always running at a higher RPM than the trans is actually spinning all of which probably makes your motor less likely to have any starting at low RPM issues. Every time? You're right on that one. I don't get what you're talking about I'll venture a guess and say: Teenage import drivers on any given Saturday night... Also, I was wrong. I am not going 100 at 3500 RPM. It hits 100 at 3300 RPM.
If you had a stronger motor that made more torque, you would have no need to go deeper with the rear gear ratio. It's your old worn motor that requires the deeper gears to get the car rolling. If and when you do swap engines to something stronger, you'll see there's no need for deeper gears. You may even see the need to step down to 3.50's. (but it may not be cost effective to do so) Most of the points you made about overdrive 5th make sense, as long as the final drive doesn't put the engine into rpms below the powerband. I wish I had an overdrive for the highway in mine, but I really have no need to invest in one as I don't drive the car further than about 25-35 miles out from the house. BTW, the 331's power comes in at about 1500 and pulls to 6500 with the combo I have.
One thing's for damn sure. We raised the Jolly Roger and sailed this thread off into the sunset Well I hope to get my 331 (sitting in garage) in soon. And I was angling for a built T-5 with a 2.94 1st and .59 5th. The D.S.S. 331 I bought has AFR 185s and a COMP 274-HR cam. With 9.55:1 compression. So I will be stepping up to more modern technology. Also I will be adding fuel injection. As for rear gears I am undecided so far. I was making a point earlier to my friend that with the new trans (.59 OD) and 4.22s 1st and 5th would be the same. The new motor will be spun to around 6200 or so when racing with the springs and cam I selected, but will have a far broader power band thanks to it being a modern roller cam with a modern design. I will probably do 3.91s or 4.11s depending on what O/D ratio I end up with. Comp says the cams power band is 2200-6200 RPM. If I get the .63 5th I will be at 2200 RPM at 65 MPH with 4.11s. Just into the cams power band The only hard thing about an O/D transmission at least in the T-5s case is finding the right balance between a first gear that is too short and a short enough rear gear ratio to keep your revs up in your power band in 5th. That's why I angle toward the steeper rear gears. I will need 4.11s just to cruise at 65 in the beginning of my power band with that .63 ratio. Good times...:Handshake Yeah. I agree if you don't go that far the cost of converting to OD might not be worth it. I used to make 140 mile trips to Santa Clara in the Bay Area to visit my parents and the OD trans allowed me to take my Maverick and have a ton more fun on the way. Alas the old 302 is making me nervous though it shows no sign of quitting even with today's 6000+ RPM "experiments" so until the new motor goes in it's limited to local duty. Let's hear it for thread piracy!!! baddad457! Keep an eye out for the original topic. If you see it coming tell me and we'll shoot it
I'd wait til the motor is in a driven before thinking about changing the rear gears. You may like it just as it is. My Canfield heads are the equivalent of AFR165's and the Z cam is pretty close to that 274HR, but I'm running it with 1.7 rockers. The @ .050 numbers aren't much different (228/228 @ .050 for the Z cam) LSA is I think the same for both. The 3x2 with it's small carbs runs a lot like EFI. Your comp ratio is a full point under mine. Comp may be off on the powerband numbers. I've never dynoed mine, the number I gave you are what I can feel. Although the motor can and has been pushed to 7 grand, it's all done pulling at about 6500. Yours may go higher with the 185 heads. I hopefully one day soon will swap the C-4 for the Toploader 4 speed I had in the Ranger. Love rowing those gears. Got to work out actuating the clutch though. Have the pedal set, but no linkage parts, but do have a McCleod hydro T/O bearing.
Cant beat the toploader for toughness. When I originally was looking for an OD manual trans I briefly considered that weird OD toploader from the 70s that they put in big cars. It had a really wide non performance gear ratio spread and a .82 or so OD so no go. I swapped my C-4 for the T-5. I went with a hydraulic set up made for a 5.0 Mustang. It has a bracket that mounts the slave cylinder to the T-5 and actuates the stock Mustang shift fork by pushing it forward instead of the cable pulling it forward. Works like magic. Cant say enough about it. They also make a kit to mount the slave bracket to a Tremec TKO trans if you want a tough 5-Speed without using a beefed up T-5. If you want OD I believe the Tremec will bolt to the toploader bell. But the Tremec 5.0 bell will work with the hydraulic pusher slave. Any way Hydraulic might be an option for you to look into. Definitely don't go cable if you have full length headers. I learned the hard way. If you can find a way to use that hydraulic T/O bearing you have I'd do it. Oh, I left my compression at 9.55 in case I wanted to throw a little bit of boost (5-7 PSI) at it in the future. In the meantime I'll enjoy 400 HP on 87 octane gas I probably will wait and try the 3.70s I have now. Its a Detroit locker but only 28 spline so I am probably going to have to upgrade to 31 sooner or later. Definitely sooner than the first time I mount drag radials on it....Bang!
Yea 69gt's old cable setup bite hard. Steve Austin's leg would snap trying to push that pedal down. I'll post my results of my 4r70w and 3.73 gear setup soon. From what I hear 3.73 loves the 4r70w OD and gearing. My poor 306s can't keep up to 69gt's 331 unless of course its bottle feed :16suspect The funny thing about 69gt's maverick is that the old 302 will still sound better than his new 331. Its freaky how badass that tired motor sounds. People have refused to race him because of its roar, lol that tired old lion can still bring it. His 5 psi at idle is with 30weight oil. With 10w30 I believe it got 0 psi at idle. Fing motor refuses to die! and trust me he's trying!.. Its like the old man engine won't pass on so the car can inherit the new motor. (perhaps I should corkorian visit the car when he sleeps)
What setup did you use for the master cylinder ? That's the only part that's holding me back. The Tremec will bolt up to a Toploader bell, but the Tremec's input shaft is 1" longer, so you have to invest in a spacer to make it work. The external slave isn't an option with the Toploader's external linkage. I'd like to have a Tremec, but unless one falls into my lap, that's not going to happen. But I do have an SROD bell to use one. All my Toploader needs is new blocker rings after a 40 year run. Shifts like butter, quiet as a mouse. I had swapped it out for an SROD (it was free) last year in the Ranger, and although the SROD needed a rebuild, the gear spread wasn't all that bad, even with the mild roller 5.0 in the Ranger (same ratios as the iron 3+1 Toploader OD trans)
