you'll likely need custom length pushrods anyways.. so you can easily use chevy rockers on a Ford once the geometry is corrected.. or vice versa for that matter. Basic fact of the matter is that once it's "custom".. factory geometry goes right out the window anyways. So, if you know what you are doing, there is nothing wrong with using Chevy rockers on a Ford engine and vice versa. I know this to be fact because I have done this for years(used various make rockers on other makes many times.. BBC works on Clevelands/385 series.. SBC works on SBF.. etc.). If you install longer valves to get a taller installed spring height, often times a Chevy rocker will be perfect because the valve tip is getting closer to the stud since the valve stem is longer and it could work out very well. As I may have also mentioned on the phone earlier today when we talked.. I probably have 2 sets of the hi-intensity style rockers buried somewhere in the shop. Also as mentioned.. 1 set in particular(spec'd as SBF when purchased nearly 20 years ago) was clearanced slightly to run on my personal work vans 4.3 Vortec to clear the stock plastic rocker covers after I installed a higher lift cam. Only reason I removed them was because I moved to an offset style 1.7 ratio rocker after very extensive port work on those heads(which had to also be clearanced in the same manner as the 1.6.. and even moreso). Not much was taken off(maybe .030-.040 max) and I would still trust them on anything short of a VERY stoutly springed motor. Which of course a build of that magnitude shouldn't be using that budget rocker anyways. If you can be patient here?.. I may be able to set you up with an entire valvetrain on the cheap.. minus the springs you'll be getting swapped from cam research(which I also have 2 sets of the aforementioned z-28 springs that could have saved you even more cash). If I had to guess.. the entire batch of parts(rockers, retainers, keepers, valves) will cost you $100 or less to mainly just cover the shipping charges and my gas to drop them off at UPS. You could call it an early Christmas present from a good old Ford samaritan.
That would really be great. I've just been looking all over the place for things of that sort. I sent back the cam shaft today via Fedex, $17 wasn't too bad a shipping charge for that at 19lbs. So i've paid both shipping there and shipping back via Fedex. I hope that's okay with them, it's the closest store i have down here. But as for the entire batch of parts, that would be amazing. It would probably save me hundreds in the long run. I don't have amazing access to inexpensive automotive parts so whenever i do get the chance, I'd gladly wait as long as you need. I've been looking at rocker arms and there's just so many different ones that sometimes the numbers and prices get jumbled in my mind, so going with the ones you have would probably be my best bet.
they won't care of it comes by camel so long as they get it back to verify that you're not scamming them out of more parts. lol and I'll dig out the camara tomorrow and post some pic's of the parts I've dug up so far... including the rockers. Now that I think about it.. I have a partial set of Scorpian rockers(x 8) in 1.7 ratio that may work out for you too. We may even be able to work a mismatched set of 1.7 ratio intakes mixed with 1.6 exhausts too. FWIW.. generally speaking intakes will respond to higher ratios much moreso than exhaust will. Exhaust likes more duration than lift and that can easily be ground into the cam without needing to rely on the rocker ratio to get there. Ramp rates can also be adjusted too. Which is also the beauty of a custom cam in that we can grind it to work with whatever we want to use in the end. Let me dig later tomorrow after my half days work out in the field.. and I'll post back with some pic's. PS. it would really be helpful tp post some close up pics of your heads. I also need the seat OD and throat ID as mentioned earlier so we can make sure those inserts will allow the larger valves in the first place. We can also double check to make sure someone didn't blow the throats out of those heads with too large a throat cut too. Like I also mentioned earlier.. .86-.88 seat to throat ratio will keep these heads more responsive for the street by helping low/mid-lift flow velocity(basically amounts to a venturi effect). Too large a seat insert with a majorly sized bottom cut(exceeding .90 ratio) will only help high-lift/peak flow numbers and hurt you on such a small motor running the warmed over street grind that you'll likely end up with here.
I'm going to the machine shop tomorrow to get the information you need about the seats. I can also maybe get pictures of the heads since they're in the shop so i don't do something stupid and lose the damned things. So I'll get back to you with all of that. P.S. I think i may have scavenged some extra cash from selling my 1970 Maverick tonight so i'm going to buy a stall converter and maybe some rear end gears. You had mentioned that with a smaller engine I'll lose some of the stall, so a 3000 stall would essentially become a 2700 approx. stall correct?
here's a few pic's to show you the primary differences between retainers and some other parts that I've dug up so far. From left to right is gen 1 SBC.. Chevy Vortec.. and some Beehives just to give perspective for larger to smaller retainer sizing. Going from left to right will give incremental rpm gains before valve float sets in by about 200 rpm at each smaller retainer size without a change in spring pressure. I looked through my valves a bit closer and I would really rather not get rid of the better stuff($$$) that I've accumulated through the years.. so these are factory Vortec 1.94 intakes mixed with aftermarket SS undercut stemmed 1.6's. Lengths are right at 4.9 inches to work with the prerequisite 1.7 installed height you should be after here. I also found a few sets of the crane hi-intensity rockers(1.6 ratio) that I mentioned earlier and they were cut more than I had remembered they were. They held up just fine to pretty stout Nextek double springs with 155 seat/400'ish open pressures and I myself would have no quam with running them on a lightly springed build such as yours. I'll post pic's to show the main differences between the modified and unmodified versions later on and you can make that decision yourself as to whether or not you're comfortable running them or not. If you're not.. that's fully understandable so I'll just keep and use them on something milder later on. Not sure if you need the guideplates or not?(they're SBC and interchange just fine like the other parts mentioned above).. since you likely have slotted pushrod holes in those heads anyways.
Okay, well whichever ones you think would be best for the springs im getting would work fine with me. It's completely understandable you don't want to let the high end ($$$) stuff go. For me, as long as they fit and work the way they're supposed to, I'm a happy camper. I'm not too picky when it comes to stuff i don't understand well. If you think theyll be fine then i trust your judgement. As long as the retainers will fit the springs, i don't really know the difference too well. And with the valves, I'm sure they'll work perfectly. As for the rockers, I'm having a hard time finding the 1.7 ratio cam research mentioned to go with... So i suppose I'll just have to go with 1.6 which should still be fine right? I hope i won't lose too much performance with the milder rockers. As for the modified ones, I have no idea what they look like compared to the unmodified ones obviously. But if you were willing to part with the unmodified ones i could always give you a little bit more for them. (But of course it's completely up to you, i'm sure the modded ones will be fine, I'm just a little skeptical about modified things for some reason.... It's just something about me. I certainly don't want to be a beggar that's a chooser here though...) And the heads i have, have what look like slotted guideplate holes already in place or something.. Theyre not round like the 302's so I'm guessing that's just a trait of the older head, so I'm not sure if i'll need them...??
As long as no previous owner of those heads drilled out the pushrod slots, he shouldn't need the guide plates. Not to mention, he'd have to mill the bosses further to accomodate the thickness of the plates, if that was not done when the studs were installed. He may want to unscrew one just to verify that the screw in portion of those studs are full sized and not some of the jerry rig studs with 5/16" bottoms. Just make sure you use hardened pushrods, which you'll need regardless of guide plates or the head slots.
Don't remember what size studs you have but here are a bunch of 1.7 roller rockers.........some cheap, some more expensive; http://www.summitracing.com/search?keyword=ford 1.7 rocker arms&dds=1 http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_trksid=m570.l3201&_nkw=ford+1.7+rocker+arms&_sacat=0
Well i just purchased all of my parts that I could think of (Except for the 3.55 gears for the rear end) in bulk... Came to $900 or somewhere around there. That leaves me enough to pay the machine shop and groberts for the rest of the parts and shipping until i can afford the rest of the drive train and power steering parts. (Hopefully ). So saving money on the rocker arms, the valves, locks, and retainers, and getting some help along the way are just an amazing advantage. So I'm fine with 1.6 rockers. I think those should be fine. I'm excited to get my car back on the road hopefully sometime early next month if all works out well. I'm tired of driving the old astrovan around.... I have some parts left to buy still, but now, i think i can finally rest assured that i will meet my goal of 300 horsepower (or more) with 3.55 gears, and a 2500 stall. That will be good enough for my final build and i hopefully wont have to be rebuilding anything for a while if everything goes right.. Plus, in those pictures.. Everything looks shiny.
ok.. so I got your PM about the seat inserts being on the "small stock" side. That's really too bad that someone saw the need to use stock sized inserts when the work and total price for slightly larger ones would have been identical. Sadly, some people just don't care to try and get more for their money.. and many machine shops just don't give a damn as they run them through their shop. Oh well.. still far better for longterm durability to have stock sized hardened seats.. than relying on the factory induction hardening for oversized valves anyways. Because by the time you'd grind out enough material to use oversize valves on the factory hardened seats.. they'd be getting into the softer iron and wouldn't last nearly as long. Trading durability for outright flow and power is never really a bad trade for a longer lived street motor, IMHO. So.. now you have a few more options here. Use stock spec 351W valves that need not be touched?(I'd still highly recommend using 32-35 dgree backcuts on both I/E though).. or use my old valves and have to dump more cash into them just to whittle them down to size along with refresh cuts to make sure they're like new. Personally.. I'd prefer to go new since you'll likely be offsetting the cost savings of the parts I'd send you with more machine work. There are also MANY valve kits like.. these.. around the net too. Couple of my low-budget Chevy buddies use their beehive knockoffs and swear by them. Prices seem decent enough. Then there's.. these.. for stock 351W heads which would be even cheaper and without as much machine work being necessary. And.. these.. are the Z28 type springs I've used at least 5 times through the years on those old heads too. With a lighter retainer like the Vortecs shown above.. they'll easily spin past 7,000 without severe surge/float. As for the rockers.. the other thing to keep in mind when moving to a 1.7 rocker is that you'll need to slightly relieve/clearance the inner most portion of the pushrod slots in the factory holes because the 1.7 rockers pushrod seats(cups) will move the pushrod towards the stud the higher the ratio goes.. or drill them out completely and use guideplates.. which will likely still need to be relieved/clearanced too. As usual with mod's like this.. it's a snowball effect. Make no mistake though.. even 1.6's mixed with higher lift cams often need slight clearancing as well. Also.. I may(very likely) have some hardened stock style pushrods that you can have too. They were used on my last motor with the factory pushrod slots before I angle milled the heads and went with offset rockers and custom pushrod lengths. Oh fun.. more digging and measuring just because I'm a parts hoarding slob and rarely label anything. lol EDIT: based on these spec's from your PM I would whittle down a set of the 1.90/1.60's(or the ones I would send you) to 1.88/1.57. That would leave enough material on the outside of the seats to deal with seat shift(related to heat distortion and is greater than most can imagine.. but is notably worse on AL heads so you'll have more margin here) and slight valve guide wear as the motor gets older.
If you don't find the power steering bits, give me a shout. I don't think I'll be going back with stock power steering if I ever put PS back on this car. Finances are much better than when I started and those Mustang II kits are looking better and better.
Okay. Well I purchased stock 351 Windsor heads so those should be Coming soon. For the rockers, I don't think I have the skill to adjust the rocker slot so ill just try and work with the 1.6 rockers, which I'm sure will still work plenty well. Let me know whenever you get the chance for a shipping estimate (preferably FedEx because I have an account there) and ill pay the shipping and whatever gas it costs to get it there. I really appreciate all the help! I'm hoping that the pushrod length wont be shortened so I can use the stock length pushrods. Especially since I really didn't mill anything *too* far so hopefully they'll fit. Im sure it will still perform well with everything I'm doing to this engine. Everything else is coming at a slower pace. In almost done with this so hopefully not too much longer. I need spring perches left, and I also need a power steering cylinder, a control valve and new power steering lines that don't leak. So after that, and the 3.55 rear end gears (which btw I need some help with pinion spline count of a ford 8" rear end) I should be done.
I'm still digging through boxes every day and I should have the final batch of usable parts which I'm willing to let go cheaply within the next few days. And not to be short with you here.. but the bolded wording above will get you into a heap of trouble if you assume that everything will just bolt right up. Once you customize anything valvetrain related.. you need to double check everything. Now, generally speaking.. you'll have no issues running 1.6's on unclearanced guides with under .500 lift cams.. BUT you need to check to be sure you get it right as everything is being installed. Through the years.. I've heard a few motors start up that were not clearanced properly(too big a cam and/or larger rockers used) and metallic squealing sounds along with the subsequent scuffing/scoring of pushrods can result. Not what you want to happen on any motor.. and even less on one that you've just poured money into. Have you figured out any of the projected spec's on the new grind they're going to do for you? My pick is a split pattern design with spec's like this: 212/218 I/E @.050 .460/.480 I/E lift(with a 1.6 rocker) 110 LSA installed at around 104-106 centerline with that advance ground into the cam to allow "straight up" installation That will give you a good all around midrange cam that snorts plenty good off the line while still pulling hard past its intended rpm range(6,200+) when you really want to beat on it more than usual to keep the ricers in their place. lol The mid-range power swell(this is where the extra overlap and greater exhaust duration really help) will really plant you back in the seat and make it a great daily driver type when you want to keep the rpm down while still reaping some of the benefit of all your hard work. The idle will be a little choppier to make the cam seem bigger than it really is too. Bonus.
I haven't called cam research yet. I think the package just got sent out today actually so ill probably call them tomorrow and work with those specs. As for the rockers, I'm hoping I won't have too much of an issue with them. I'll measure the push rods though and make sure they'll fit. After that I can't think of anything else I need for the engine.
