I certainly get your point here.. but you're taking it completely out of context for this particular situation. The OP told them that he was running a "stock convertor with 3.00 gears" and also mentioned that he was "eventually going to upgrade the two later on when funds were available".. or something similar to that. They simply gave him a high-torque cam based on current spec's, is all. So, in reality.. it wasn't a bad grind at all. It was a "mis-spec'd grind" and would be a totally different situation altogether. Well.. depending on what you actually meant by "ground wrong", I guess. If you trust Crower to send you a cam based on their experience and you "don't like it"?.. good luck getting them to redo another for you. Not saying they wouldn't do it for a bigger account.. just that they aren't in the business of being second guessed and having to make good on something just because a customer thinks it's wrong, is all. And in reality.. you'd have to fill out a custom cam request form in the first place with either of the two companies I mentioned(which should have been done here as well, IMO).. so the error would be completely on you if you didn't include the "future upgrades" to be considered into the final grind spec's. Going off of notes taken during a phone call is just plain silly to me.. so shame on them in the first place. Either way.. they quickly stepped up to make things right here within 5 minutes of me calling them. IMO, that says something about thier customer relations too.. and I give credit where credit is due.
I'm sure. I bought those valves for the 351 Windsor heads you had posted earlier because they fit the recommended valve clearances almost perfectly. I didnt know you were still sending valves either way (for that i apologize. i was under the understanding that your valves were too big so you weren't sending them.. my mistake... im sorry) so i just bought them since they were inexpensive enough for me and according to the specs, they worked. My machinist actually gave me the valve guide specs s long time ago.. Although he did give them to me in two different formats, ill just put them up how he originally said.. The inside of the guides were 11/32" and the outside was .531" I don't mind you calling them either, especially since i'm sure you know a hell of a lot more than me when it comes to things like that. I've already told them i was working with my "uncle" on this build and that he was sending me some parts to help me out. I'm sure they wouldn't mind you calling them. I'll PM you their number.
ok.. sounds good. Will you be able to drop the valves off to them so they can give me acuurate spec's on what you actually purchased? I'll measure a few sets of springs tomorrow to see what installed heights and seat/open pressures are. Like I also mentioned a while back too.. you may end up needing to adjust final installed height with + or - .050 valve keepers. Pretty standard stuff and it's cheap too. I myslef always prefer spending the extra few dollars(literally only a few bucks difference)) to get machined keepers. I may also have some you can use too.
I don't mean to be confrontational here but what you've said about Crower just made the hair on the back of neck stand up, they are one the most competent cam/crank/rod manufactures in the business and have gotten to where they are buy supplying guys like me an excellent product and better customer service than anyone in the industry..IMHO I don't think I took it out of context at all and satisfying the customer is Job #1 at Crower..............this has not changed in the past 30 years. From reading all of the posts from 1974Comet it sounds like the guy on the other end of the phone really didn't have a clue and wasn't listening to his customer.......or he was not very technically astute..........and for me this just reinforces what other racers have said about the company. Bad grind is a manufacturing issue, but mis-spec'd is lack of experience or just bad judgment.....................again, no difference that I can see although I can say I would not trust them to design a custom cam or recommend a grind for me............................again, these are the kind of issues that other racers have had. I would expect that if Crower would suggest a cam to me that it would be exactly what I wanted...........and as for returning it..................you wouldn't have to because it would be right for the application the first time.............. In reality..................no you don't have to fill out a spec sheet for a custom cam.....................and I've had maybe a dozen special cams from Crower over the years, and never filled out one sheet. What Crower does do is they ask you probably 20 questions...........they document your responses..............this goes into you customer file and the cam is given a file number/custom number...................after the phone call and within 24 hours you get an email confirming what you talked about with the tech and it is put in black and white.....................then they tell you what your options are..................you make a decision and email them back or call if you want. So, this cam manufacturer.................are they an ISO9000/9001 company?.................kind of sounds like they aren't.
Well, either way, it seems like I kind of have no choice in the matter at this point here. For future reference though, i will definitely give Crower a try. I was -in fact - offered one originally but turned it down due to the $250 price and the stock specs.. That's the only reason. I've read great things about them though, and in the future im very interested in giving them a try as time progresses.. And the second i get the valves in the mail (should be tomorrow hopefully) i'll drop them off and let them know that you'll be calling.
I like Crower as well.. but they still make mistakes too. The custom grind they did for me for my 429 SCJ got outdone by a much cheaper, and slightly smaller.. OTS grind from Comp. While you may think they would have gladly taken it back and given me something else just to keep me happy.. all in the name of "customer service".. you'd be wrong. They simply passed the buck and told me that my tune was off and that the cam was right for my combo. I had the car worked on and tuned by at least 3 different reputable builders(one of which was a world record holding offshore ciagr boat engine builder who helped me port the heads for that motor).. AND the carb shops owner himself(who did my heavily mod'd Holley for that motor and even recurved my distributor FOR FREE in hopes that it would get me to stop coming by his shop and whining about it).. and they all agreed that the cam was off spec for my combo. I lived with it for all of about 7 months.. mainly because it was my daily driver while I built another Mustang project.. and then eventually sold it to a buddy running a 460 in a wagon and he really liked it on his small port heads. It just didn't work for my large ports. Anywho.. what's the point with all this brand loyalty praising anyways? A few chuckled "I told ya so's" from the non-believers? Kick a little salt in the wounds? Some had bad experiences with them? Well gee whiz.. of course they did! Look around at all the others too.. and the same thing happens to all of them at one point or another. If a motor likes a cam?.. it could care less who ground it and put their marks on it. It either works or it doesn't. Cam research has been around for long enough to make a few that work by now too. That's just life in general when it comes to building custom engines and the pro's often go through as many as 10 or more custom grinds as they sneak up on the optimal spec for a particular combo. And these are WORLD CLASS ENGINE BUILDERS I'M TALKING ABOUT HERE. And sometimes.. it's not exactly the spec they thought they'd end up with either. And.. if you think that a custom cam manufacturer.. pick one.. any one.. is spending as much of their resources on spec'ing some sportsman racer a one off grind as they do for a world class race team that buys them by the pallet full?.. well.. I guess it never hurts to dream. Anyways.. all this brand posturing is pointless since this is what we're dealing with now. The car will run decent enough when it's all dialed in regardless of who ground it. It's just kinda sad that I need to take the time to call them and hold their hand to get it done. Luckily the last grind they sent me(the 3rd for that particular motor).. and also based on their experience.. is spec'd pretty decent for my combo. Due to all my other obligations, it'll be late in the summer when I finally get it fired up.. but I'm extremely confident that it'll run better than any OTS grind I could have purchased for my particular combo. Especially considering that no one makes a grind that's very similar to it. As they say though.. the proof is in the pudding.. and only time and video will tell the true story.
I assume you had the cam in the motor and ran it....................well, no cam manufacturer is going to take back a used cam.............come on! Brand loyalty.....................sure I have quite a few manufacturers that I would never use and ones that I would.................just the way life is. Not pouring salt at all, but when someone makes a statement about what a company will or won't do they need to back it up with proof.............not just words.................and taking back a used cam is just lunacy..........at least in my book. My answer to your question about making one-off pieces for Sportsman Racers and spending resources on R&D is Heck Yes (could have used a more descriptive work) but Crower does this all of the time..............just made a crank for a friend that is building a Cadillac Flathead motor for Bonneville................Crower is very involved in all types of Sportsman racing and has been for sometime. I think our friend 1974Comet may choose a different cam manufacturer next time anyway..........................enough said. If you want to call me and discuss this further I think we've taken enough room here on the forum......................send me a PM and you can even call collect if you want.
