For the first question, i originally stated about 800 as a finish budget for the engine, but it could go any further honestly up to maybe even around $1600. The only issue is the time frame I would need to accumulate that money. I work at an In-N-Out restaurant, and while the pay is better than normal it's still not really enough to finish it in a few months if i spend too much money on the engine (although i did get a job offer at Oreilly's as well) (Not to mention adding in a transmission rebuild and power steering rebuild) The house that it's at is my dad's old house, and it's being foreclosed within the course of the next year. (I really have no idea as to what the date will be or how long it will take, but the proceedings began on April 1st.) but as of now: The block has been Bored .040 over and that so far has cost $260 flat. They are going to get me Sealed Power pistons and rings and deck the block for a little over $160 i believe, and then they said that if i were to go to a junkyard and pull F3ZE heads off of an explorer, they would do *anything* i wanted to the heads (except port them) for about $297. So i want to make the most out of the money i'm spending. Plus i called cam research and they said the price of a hydraulic tappet cam was going to be around $225 - $250. Now i have no problem with spending that amount of money. I'm just worried that if not all the parts mesh right and i fall below the 10.1 ratio that was my intended goal, ill be all messed up. If i can, I want to get as much horsepower as humanly possible with this budget i have but keep it something practically reliable. That's why I was satisfied with 300 horsepower. But some seem to say that i could get more horsepower with the parts im buying, my only question is.. approximately how much more, and what do i do to get there? If I'm buying the parts that I have listed, what do i do to them to get them to work well together and produce the biggest bang for the buck and how much horsepower could i really get with them? If I'm getting the Gt40 heads, a custom grind cam, flat top pistons, decking the block, boring the block, milling the heads, and getting a 670cfm Street avenger with harder secondary springs, what kind of possibilities await me or issues hinder me? Also, i really wanted to put a Toploader 4-speed in it, but didnt really know how it would work or if i would need to modify the transmission tunnel, so i'm planning on rebuilding the C4. (I dont have a clutch pedal or linkage) To answer the other questions, heres the plan: I want to rebuild the motor with the parts that are stated above. Then the transmission will have new gaskets and a shift kit put in it, plus the power steering will be rebuilt. So once that has been done, my plan was to get shorty headers for it (or whichever kind of headers would work best for my set up) and take it to my dad's friends muffler shop and put a new exhaust system in it with Magnaflow mufflers and maybe an H pipe, or some sort of equalizer tube (or again, whichever would sound best and help relieve the back pressure on the engine.) Maybe 3" pipes with a 2-1/2" tail pipe? And while im waiting for the engine to be complete, im planning on doing a shelby 1" drop on the car and aligning it to shelby specs in order to handle better. (I've found a thread on here showing exactly how to do it) I may also be trading -in the next few days- a motorcycle for a 1971 comet (original V8 car), so i can use parts off of it, and maybe change the bumpers to lose some weight etc. and then put mine all back together and drive it around and have some fun! For the time-being, im removing the upper control arms and sanding and painting the engine compartment to look nice so that i have something to do. In fact, heres a picture of it so far.
But the machine shop seems to believe that the pin height doesnt really matter.. Is this true? Also found a pair of late model roller 351W heads for $50 that can be rebuilt... will these work better?
If they truly think that, it may be time for another machineshop. You can only mill so much off the block to get to a zero deck, then it's piston choice that matters. The piston top needs to be as close as possible to the deck to get the full effect of "squish" or "quench" against the deck face of the heads to control pinging (this relates to octane requirement) With the piston too far down the hole, you lose this. Ford's 400M was a prime example of this. (I could go into more detail, but don't have the time now)Those roller 351 heads should be E7's, they're the same head as those used on the 302 from 87-97, only difference is the head bolt holes are drilled larger to accept the 351's 1/2 head bolts. You really need washers under the 302's bolts if you use em.
Yup, basically there are only two std performance heads used on 302 & 351 engines from approx '85 through '96... These are the E6SE that you don't want unless someone is giving maybe 50 that could be sold for scrap... Those were used on all the Lo-Po(150-160Hp) Crown Vic, Grand marquis engines from '86 thru '91 plus the '86-'88 T-Bird & Cougar... The '86 HO engines in Mustangs and MK VII Lincolns also used this head and were rated at 200Hp(25 less than '87-up) The E7TE was introduced on the 225Hp 5.0 HO & truck engines in '87 and used up to when the F & E series switched to modular power... '85 HO & '85-'86 Truck engines use a E5AE or E5TE head that are similar to the later E7TE(OK there are more than two heads, but not from '87 up)... Only engines like the 5.0 Cobra & 5.8 Lightnings got the better than stock GT40 heads... The lone exception is the '96 to early '97 Explorer that also got GT40, later Explorers got the GT40P with a revised spark plug location that are generally difficult to fit headers to(at least ones that allow clearance for spark plugs)...
Hearing that worried me too. I thought pin height seemed to be everything. So the best affordable pistons i could find had a pin height of 1.605. So now I'm not so sure about this shop anymore. Also, it looks like their boiling tank thing really doesn't get ride of the paint because when I went to get my heads back they had 'tanked' them and the paint was still on it along with the carbon in the chamber. So now I'm kinda sketchy of this place a little. If I were to find early 351 Winsor heads for around the same price (like 69 heads) would you say go for them or wait for cheaper GT40's?
sounds like they may just be trying to pawn off some of their cheaper "builder specials" on you to make more profit margin. Usually best to spec or even buy your own pistons since their markup and control over what they actually put in there can sometimes come back to bite you later on. As for the hot tank not doing its job very well?.. paint won't always come off.. but if the haeds are still dirty?.. then they didn't tank them long enough. If they say that's as good as they can get them.. or that's their normal work quality?.. cut your losses and find another shop. And why would you want to buy 351 heads with the larger bolt holes to force yourself into spending even more cash on stepped bolts/washers when it's not necessary? Sounds like your build is far from needing heads at this point anyways.. so why rush out and buy what's out there today? Those lo-po heads aren't going to be much better than what you started with anyways. The best advice I could give would be to finish your shortblock(minus cam/gears).. be patient and keep searching. After all.. they built like tens of millions of the types of heads you're looking for here.
Yeah, that's what it seemed to me too. That's why I bought my own piston and rings. I just could only find a pin height of 1.605. Is that going to be okay to mill to? They're the only affordable pistons I could find for a bore of .040 over and that was actually the second highest pin height and ring kit they had. I suppose I could buy the pistons and rings separately though? And also, the dirt is gone, but ALL of the paint is still there as for the carbon in the combustion chamber is still there. So I guess I'll take the rest of my work to another shop. Anyone thing that would be better? Also, I'm not sure. For the time being then, should I just put my old heads back on with a spring kit on it, plug the thermactor holes, and then run the engine as it is until a find better cylinder heads? And just put those on later?
If it were my cash spent so far.. at the very least, I'd ask them to try and get the heads cleaner then they are if you've already payed for the cleaning. Thye may not like it.. but will probably retank them a bit longer to keep your business. Politely lead them along as if you'll be back again next week.. and then go somewhere else after they finally give you what you payed for in the first place. Yeah.. you could do that.. but using unfreshioned heads on a new shortblock leads to other issues too.. not to mention the extra gaskets and time involved to do it twice. Never fun to hang over fenders and working in tight quarters vs out in the open on an engine stand either. All I can tell you from experience with rushing to get things done.. is that patience is key to getting good results and saving money in the long run.
Yeah. Luckily I got the heads back before they charged me for them so luckily I didn't pay for the tank. For the block though, I will be paying and that ill probably try my best to get my money's worth. As for the heads, ill just wait for something to come along I suppose. I'm trying to afford myself as much time as I can so I might as well wait and do other things in the mean time I guess. Ill try and use one of the other machine shops in the area. I'm going there today anyway to check on what they're doing so ill just make the decision then. As for the pistons, they're on their way hopefully today so ill get the deck milled at another shop. Will 1.605 be okay? Also if I got 1965 289 Closed chamber heads for $300 that have been ported, decked, have hardened exhaust seats, and bronze guides would that be worth it?
If all you have to work with are those pistons, then yes, they'll do. Assuming the decks are now 8.226, milling them .020 will get you pistons down the hole by only .010. You could probably mill another 5 or 10, but I'd have them do a mock up before doing anything to see exactly what you're starting with, then make a decision as to how much to mill. $300's proably not bad for those 289 heads, provided everything that's been done is fresh. Do they have screw in studs ? Bigger valves ?
Haha. That's the best news ive heard all posts! Anyways, should i go with those heads or some 1966 289 Hi-Po heads with screw in studs, oversized valves, and a dual spring set that needs a valve job and guides for $150? It also looks like they have some sort of guide for the push rods underneath the studs. These are the two options im thinking of. Any votes? http://orangecounty.craigslist.org/pts/3728930270.html http://losangeles.craigslist.org/lgb/pts/3728181660.html
Soooo.. which pistons did you end up ordering? Also keep in mind that the more you mill from the block AND heads.. the shorter the pushrods will need to be.. and/or longer the valvestems to maintain the proper rocker/tip sweep geometry. Not really a biggie though since hardened pushrods are available in almost any length imaginable(.050 increments are common).. but with longer valves you'll likely end up with -.050 retainers and/or -.050 locks to correct the springs installed height for proper seat loads(unless you get taller/stiffer springs to help remedy it). This is why you really need to get the shortblock in order to have a better chance at knowing what parts would be needed once you settle on which heads will be used. And while those tight chambered 289 heads won't flow quite as good as the gt40's after comparable port work.. they'll surely be just as good or slightly better than stock gt40's if the port work is even close to decent on the 289's. Not to mention.. they would be easy to nip down to about 52cc's or so.. for achieving that 10-1 static ratio you're after here even if you don't end up with a 0 deck height. What sized valves are installed in them? Without extra chamber work(deshrouding).. 1.9 inch intakes would be about perfect for your build. My little .060 over 302 sitting on the stand has heavily mod'd hi-po heads with 52cc chambers(deshrouded for 1.94/1.60 valves) and true 0 deck for about 10.5-1 SCR with Total Seal gapless rings. Because of those heads.. it makes an easy 340 horse with tons of off idle snort despite a medium sized Cam Research solid flat(IIRC.. roughly 224/230 @.050?) that still easily rev's past 7,000rpm. Compression just helps to make more power everywhere in the rpm range and really works like magic to wake these little short stroke motors up. With all that extra low-end grunt and throttle response.. my little heavily hopped up C4 automatic chirped tires even under VERY light 2,000rpm shifts.. and scratched hard with 25-30mph posi wheelspin at full throttle 1-2 shifts around 58mph on BFG radials(235/70/14's). And that was in a gutted 3,500lb Fairlane 500 station wagon(70/71Torino style) with only 3.50 gears!.. so imagine what your light little car will do with about 600lbs less weight! 300 horsies will be tough to corral once you get all the complimentary pieces working together. PS. neither of those 289 heads appear to be hi-po's(unless the spring pockets have been machined so much that the cast in spring locater's are now gone?).. but the chamber cc's are close enough in that respect. From what I can see(which is very little).. and without knowing if those used springs are any good on the second set.. I'd lean towards the first set if you could talk him into selling you just the 289 heads for about $175-200. The lower compression 302's aren't going to be desirable/worth as much in a sea of aftermarket/improved factory style heads these days.. whereas the higher compression early 289's are getting more scarce. Porting doesn't look half bad on them either. See if you can get more pic's and full spec's to show us more detail and a few of us can better tell you which is the best deal.
Looks like i ended up ordering these guys! :bananaman http://www.summitracing.com/parts/slp-8kh273cp40 So hopefully the block can be decked to that piston. And the guy with the first set is going to email me more pictures on friday of the 289 heads which i was leaning more towards since the machine work on them actually looks pretty well decent. I believe (if i remember anything correct from my dad's old ramblings) that if the last digit on these heads are "E" then they could very well be Hi-Po's. I.E. C5AE-E I just cant see if they have the spring cups. Plus, ive found some hardware for them that include studs, valves, seats, and COMP springs for a relatively decent price. Do you think these would be well enough worth it? And put a little extra meaning into the car's horsepower. Maybe i could push a little over 320 horsepower? (OR maybe get shelby's 390 horsepower with the Hi-Po ) The guy is supposed to get back to me sometime soon, so im actually kind of excited to get these 289's. Hopefully he'll take less for them so i guess we'll see what can be done with them.
these would have been the best choice from what I can see. More cash.. but less decking and much better ring package too. http://www.summitracing.com/parts/slp-l2488f40/overview/make/ford I'd surely wait and see what hardware.. and shape the heads are in before ordering anything up. Might be able to save some cash if any of the included parts are reusable. 320 horse is going to be fairly easy if the rest of the package is matched well enough to those heads. PS.. the valve reliefs are huge on those pistons at 8cc's. Might be better for a larger cam.. but won't help for making more compression. These would be the next ones to look at with their smaller valve reliefs, IMHO. http://www.summitracing.com/parts/uem-3101hc-040/overview/make/ford http://www.kb-silvolite.com/test/silv-o-lite/spistons.php?action=details&S_id=110 http://www.fordmuscle.com/archives/2001/08/efimotor/index2.php
You know what.. I looked at those too.. And I guess before i buy any pistons I'm going to just get the heads and see whats going on with those. I'm using compression calculator and it seems like i might end up being closer to 11.1:1 with the set up im looking at lately.. If everything checks out well, ill just go with those first pistons you mentioned. The extra $120 isnt a *huge* loss i suppose and will probably end up being just that much worthwhile and fun. Thanks for the help. I'll take the ones i ordered back and wait to see how much cash i got left lying around after this. haha.
